Comments on: Jane Austen and Ian Hislop’s Stiff Upper Lip

By: jfwakefield

jfwakefield — Thu, 04 Oct 2012 19:57:03 +0000

Tina, as if I’d despise you;)

But I happen to agree. And I think we miss a lot of her references to current events, because, as I have discovered, most are subtle and not obvious; they were not obvious to late 19th century readers of Austen and they are certainly not obvious to people of the 21st century.But they are there, all the same, and they confirm her to be a woman who was vitally interested in the politics of her day, national and international.

Ans yes, I think the gift shop criticism was rather cheap too.

By: Tina

Tina — Thu, 04 Oct 2012 19:36:49 +0000

“I can keep silent no longer”….. it is very difficult and unfair to judge someone in the 18th century with the eyes and culture of the 21st. The small circles Jane described in her books were never in an imaginary country, in an undetermined century. There are constant references to where and when the story developed. What she wants to mention of outside events is up to her. As the author it’s her choise at to what is important to the plot. As small country circles, far from the political turmoil of the cities, they probably weren’t living these events on an every day basis. These events where so far away that the could hardly modify their every day life very much. Jane herself had brothers serving in the navy during the war, and she lived on her life. She had first hand knowledge on how it affected her circle. If it was important to the plot, or had she wanted to, she’d of included it, I’m certain. As for the gift shop: beside the fact of the very appropiate motives towards the recollection of funds, suvenirs are what today’s society likes and buys. It happens in Museums, it happens in the Vatican, it happens any and everywhere people visit. (Please, I’m just stating a fact, not judging.) So why not in good taste and for a good cause ?? I don’t think Tolkien is turning in his grave lamenting all the Lord of the Rings merchandising round the world, and feeling underestimated because of it. His still inmense popularity is expressed according to these times, not his. Yes, I confess, not only am I a Tolkien fan since the age of ten, but also a trekkie. Fantasy is my undoing. Now despise me if you dare.

By: jfwakefield

jfwakefield — Thu, 04 Oct 2012 17:32:53 +0000

Don't apologise...but do remember I'm only the reporter. In short, don't shoot the messenger :)It is not I who is overlooking different characters but THE PROGRAMME! I said the argument was interesting, not that I was wholly swayed by it ;) In fact I agree with you that Elizabeth Bennet may be an exception to the rule as posited by this programme( but she was rather stoical once she'd read and accepted the truth of Darcy's letter) And remember,they didn't really concentrate on heroines, but on heroes)And while Darcy did become less judgemental,under the influence of Elizabeth, I still think of him as a somewhat repressed character.Even at the end of the novel.

By: thevalueofsparrows

thevalueofsparrows — Thu, 04 Oct 2012 16:53:36 +0000

I apologize for continuing this discussion, but I think it too facile an assertion, this stiff-upper lip vs. emotionalism, with the former being the preferred virtue in Austen’s work. As to Marianne vs. Elinor, Elinor, as stiff-upper lipped as she is, openly treasures Marianne, perhaps because of her emotionalism. And Brandon, the quintessential man with the wooden lip, adores her also. He even gives a little speech on the very value of Marianne, for her unbridled passions.

And the overwrought, emotion-driven heroine that you are overlooking is the queen of Austen heroines herself: Elizabeth Bennett. She is driven by her “wrong” emotions. First against Darcy, then for Wickham, then for Darcy. In spite of wishing anyone to acknowledge it out loud, Elizabeth is, in her own ways, very much her mother’s daughter. (I knew I was right. I knew I was right.)

Like Marianne and Elinor, (passion and calm), you could set Jane and Elizabeth as the yin and yang of emotionalism, with Jane as the quiet sufferer, and Elizabeth with the outspoken emotions at every turn.

And, don’t forget, Darcy is made the better man, not by increasing the stiffness of his upper lip, but by softening it. By admitting he was wrong. By going with his feelings.

This softening of his is the whole swoon of the book, after all.

By: jfwakefield

jfwakefield — Thu, 04 Oct 2012 07:57:20 +0000

My objections to the gift shop sequence are many and varied. The question was asked,as the presenter bought the “I heart Darcy” bookmark, “what would Jane Austen have thought of it?”( and the teatowels and other standard gift shop fare that you can find in every museum / country house in the realm). First, I think she might have been amused by it all, and not a little bemused to find her popularity now is such that companies and people who produce these itesm( I’m thinking Etsy) can make money in this way. Second, I think she may be pleased that her fame is such that her brothers little cottage is now a place of pilgrimage for so many ( and that the proceeds from the gift shop help fund it) and I have no doubt that her reaction would also involve some ironic comment on it all. My objection to it was that it implied, to me at least, that admirers of Jane Austen who like such items are somehow less serious than say admirers of other literay figures mentioned in the programme, Wollstonecraft and Boswell. Liking these items implies some form of trivial cast of mind in Janeites who indulge in buying such “fripperies”.I don’t agree, and don’t like such an implication. It’s not one I’d make at the RSC, for example, where similar items are for sale, and I wonder if TV presenters would even think of trying to make the same point anywhere else than at Chawton. There is regrettably still,a tendency to view admirers of JA as twee, and I really object to instances of it.I understand it was a “gift” to a satirically minded presenter to use such items in that way, but I didn’t think that was the high point of the programme * getting off my soapbox now*

By: jfwakefield

jfwakefield — Thu, 04 Oct 2012 07:17:47 +0000

I agree, but Marianne is the only openly, recklessly passionate main character, or heroine;) the programme was making the point that such emotions were not the desired model. The more restrained,stiff upper lip characters, Elinor and Anne Elliot for example, conformed to the new buttoned- up emotional standard of behaviour. Though, to be honest, the programme ‘s emphasis was on male stoicism rather than female. The programme made the point that the characters that you list are not ones we should aspire to emulate, in Jane Austens world, due to many factors but mostly for their lack of self control.

By: thevalueofsparrows

thevalueofsparrows — Thu, 04 Oct 2012 03:37:02 +0000

Miss Marianne isn’t the only “passionate” Jane Austen character. Her “other” half, Willoughby, was highly emotional, recklessly so. Then there’s Mrs. Bennett, the queen of emotion. The lead of Northanger Abbey is notorious for her rampant emotions. In Persuasion you have the two farm girls/sisters who compete with each other, not to mention Mary who is disabled at times by her emotions, or illnesses, or emotions that bring on illness, or….

By: Cathy Allen

Cathy Allen — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 23:36:20 +0000

LOL! I had no idea that the phrase Stiff Upper Lip is an American expression, apparently. I've recently seen (on the web) what purports to be a WWII poster that encouraged the British to "Keep Calm and Carry On" during the Blitz (!!!). I assumed it was yet another reflection a British attribute that I thought has always existed. I am amazed that it originated in Jane Austen's lifetime! Thanks for the links. I'll take a look at whatever I can view of the show as soon as I can; it sounds interesting. AND, I agree that Jane Austen would be very pleased that the Gift Shop is helping the Museum stay afloat. Thank you, Julie.

By: jfwakefield

jfwakefield — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 22:09:58 +0000

Goodness, I didn’t think I was attacking, just expressing some mild annoyance with some minor points of the programme ;) in the main I enjoyed this episode, and the Jane Austen part was interesting. But I didnt like the scenes in the gift shop etc. it’s very easy to sneer, and I didn’t think it really added to the points Ian Hislop was making.

By: David Bennett

David Bennett — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 14:56:02 +0000

We haven’t seen the Stiff Upper Lip yet (it’s on the TIVO box – waiting patiently) so I can’t get the full flavour of your attack – but for what I do know, I enjoyed your article immensely.